RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah, but I don't want to name and very few people know about this.

TEHELKA: Haan.
RAKESH NIGAM: Very few people.

RAKESH NIGAM: I will give you an example of MTR. You must have heard of Daimler Chrysler?
TEHELKA: Which one?

RAKESH NIGAM: Daimler Chrysler. Mercedes people. Mercedes is a very small project for them. Daimler Chrysler is a big group for defence.
TEHELKA: Daimler Chrysler…in Germany?

RAKESH NIGAM: Massive…bloody this thing. And I am doing job for them.
TEHELKA: In the ministry?
RAKESH NIGAM: In the ministry.

TEHELKA: That one you succeed in.
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

TEHELKA: In HAL? That is a jet trainer, I think that…no?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no, no. This is for the ALH. Advanced light helicopters. ALH.

TEHELKA: Okay. Already signed deals?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, not deals. Just…

TEHELKA: Breakthrough?
RAKESH NIGAM: Got a breakthrough.

TEHELKA: That is a big thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: It has been going on for seven years. And the bloody Indian agent was screwing these people. Dr. Fisher and Heinz. I gave him results within a time of 20 days.

TEHELKA: Do the same for us also.
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. We have to develop a confidence in each other. Everyone…look, in Delhi, Mr. Mathew, you will find bloody out of 100 people, 90 people who will tell you, "I am this, I am that and I am accessible to the Prime Minister." Little do you know that they are only accessible to the gardener of the Prime Minister.

TEHELKA (laughs): That is true.
RAKESH NIGAM: I have been in this business for…I own a very low profile.
TEHELKA: Okay.

RAKESH NIGAM: You may not even heard of my name by now.
TEHELKA: Yeah, first time I am…

RAKESH NIGAM: Defence Secretary appointment, I came to know one-and-a-half months back. I told DEEPAK GUPTA. He said, "Nigam sahab, Rakesh bhai, really I am astonished…" And the rapport I have, is seen to believed.

R.K. GUPTA: PM told BANGARU LAXMAN, whatever Gupta says, do it.
PANT: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Basically there are other expenses, you know. You have taken project two years, three years to do…. Expenses…it's another two per cent.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Ten per cent is your expense. Commission in this business is 15 per cent.
TEHELKA: Total commission?

DEEPAK GUPTA: Then you make five per cent. I'm talking from an agent's point of view.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I know two people who know Gen Choudary.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: One is Deepak Chhabra…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And the other man is a chap called Sharma. He works for my company.
TEHELKA: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: But I prefer Chhabra to Sharma.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Because Chhabra will deliver goods. Sharma has a habit that first give the money.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: First give the money, then we will see.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. The commission you spelt out, 17 per cent, that will come at a later stage. We will not ask you for a letter or anything until we are sure about whether we can perform or not. But to make a breakthrough within that 17 per cent there is going to be…there could be something known as teething problems. Teething expenses…which you have to meet. How much, that's what I am asking you.

TEHELKA: You see, you are talking about the token amount?

RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.
TEHELKA: Token amount is if you can arrange a meeting with this man, Defence Secretary. It's just a half kind of promise from his level. It won't be work out in 2000, it maybe in 2001. Now on-the-spot I can give two lakh rupees.

RAKESH NIGAM: Mr. Mathew, I will give you 25 lakhs of rupees. You arrange for my meeting with one of my contacts…with Defence Secretary. People here talk in crores, you are talking two lakhs and five lakhs…
TEHELKA: Sir, this is when nothing has happened.

RAKESH NIGAM: Obviously…no, no, Mr. Mathew, for organising a meeting is a very big breakthrough. It's not, just not…it's all going to be official.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: Nothing off-the-record. Which will happen. And getting an access there is itself an opening. Yeah, we are going to be looked after. If…let's talk in terms where we can really make a breakthrough with the business. Two lakhs, five lakhs, 10 lakhs people just throw…for entertaining. Recently Deepak and I just incurred an expenditure of about a lakh rupees, a week back.

TEHELKA: Did this man introduce lot of finance last year. Financial advisors and some defence officers…those who are related W.E. I am not blaming him. If minister is unable to reach him, then how can…?
RAKESH NIGAM: Very strange. Harin Pathak is a very bold person. One or two jobs he did for me, and we exchanged bags. And things moved very smoothly.
TEHELKA: Which one? In the foreign deal?
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: That is the very reason that you have been in this business and have not been able to make a proper breakthrough. Your own, your person whom you are naming their own ministers…I got one job…just for a breakthrough. For six years this project, they were not getting any breakthrough. I was getting competition from companies like…people like Chaudhary and Nanda. I gave one CR and things started moving.
TEHELKA: CR means?
RAKESH NIGAM: One…

TEHELKA: One crore?
RAKESH NIGAM: For MTR.

TEHELKA: MTR is?
RAKESH NIGAM: Germany.

TEHELKA: Okay, that is a HAL thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: HAL thing.

TEHELKA: What was that?
RAKESH NIGAM: Engines. For six years they were getting fucked in Delhi and the Indian agent was screwing them.

TEHELKA: So Mr. Harin Pathak…
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah, but I don't want to name and very few people know about this.

TEHELKA: Haan.
RAKESH NIGAM: Very few people.

RAKESH NIGAM: I will give you an example of MTR. You must have heard of Daimler Chrysler?
TEHELKA: Which one?

RAKESH NIGAM: Daimler Chrysler. Mercedes people. Mercedes is a very small project for them. Daimler Chrysler is a big group for defence.
TEHELKA: Daimler Chrysler…in Germany?

RAKESH NIGAM: Massive…bloody this thing. And I am doing job for them.
TEHELKA: In the ministry?
RAKESH NIGAM: In the ministry.

TEHELKA: That one you succeed in.
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

TEHELKA: In HAL? That is a jet trainer, I think that…no?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no, no. This is for the ALH. Advanced light helicopters. ALH.

TEHELKA: Okay. Already signed deals?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, not deals. Just…

TEHELKA: Breakthrough?
RAKESH NIGAM: Got a breakthrough.

TEHELKA: That is a big thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: It has been going on for seven years. And the bloody Indian agent was screwing these people. Dr. Fisher and Heinz. I gave him results within a time of 20 days.

TEHELKA: Do the same for us also.
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. We have to develop a confidence in each other. Everyone…look, in Delhi, Mr. Mathew, you will find bloody out of 100 people, 90 people who will tell you, "I am this, I am that and I am accessible to the Prime Minister." Little do you know that they are only accessible to the gardener of the Prime Minister.

TEHELKA (laughs): That is true.
RAKESH NIGAM: I have been in this business for…I own a very low profile.
TEHELKA: Okay.

RAKESH NIGAM: You may not even heard of my name by now.
TEHELKA: Yeah, first time I am…

RAKESH NIGAM: Defence Secretary appointment, I came to know one-and-a-half months back. I told DEEPAK GUPTA. He said, "Nigam sahab, Rakesh bhai, really I am astonished…" And the rapport I have, is seen to believed.

R.K. GUPTA: PM told BANGARU LAXMAN, whatever Gupta says, do it.
PANT: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Basically there are other expenses, you know. You have taken project two years, three years to do…. Expenses…it's another two per cent.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Ten per cent is your expense. Commission in this business is 15 per cent.
TEHELKA: Total commission?

DEEPAK GUPTA: Then you make five per cent. I'm talking from an agent's point of view.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I know two people who know Gen Choudary.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: One is Deepak Chhabra…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And the other man is a chap called Sharma. He works for my company.
TEHELKA: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: But I prefer Chhabra to Sharma.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Because Chhabra will deliver goods. Sharma has a habit that first give the money.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: First give the money, then we will see.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. The commission you spelt out, 17 per cent, that will come at a later stage. We will not ask you for a letter or anything until we are sure about whether we can perform or not. But to make a breakthrough within that 17 per cent there is going to be…there could be something known as teething problems. Teething expenses…which you have to meet. How much, that's what I am asking you.

TEHELKA: You see, you are talking about the token amount?

RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.
TEHELKA: Token amount is if you can arrange a meeting with this man, Defence Secretary. It's just a half kind of promise from his level. It won't be work out in 2000, it maybe in 2001. Now on-the-spot I can give two lakh rupees.

RAKESH NIGAM: Mr. Mathew, I will give you 25 lakhs of rupees. You arrange for my meeting with one of my contacts…with Defence Secretary. People here talk in crores, you are talking two lakhs and five lakhs…
TEHELKA: Sir, this is when nothing has happened.

RAKESH NIGAM: Obviously…no, no, Mr. Mathew, for organising a meeting is a very big breakthrough. It's not, just not…it's all going to be official.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: Nothing off-the-record. Which will happen. And getting an access there is itself an opening. Yeah, we are going to be looked after. If…let's talk in terms where we can really make a breakthrough with the business. Two lakhs, five lakhs, 10 lakhs people just throw…for entertaining. Recently Deepak and I just incurred an expenditure of about a lakh rupees, a week back.

TEHELKA: Did this man introduce lot of finance last year. Financial advisors and some defence officers…those who are related W.E. I am not blaming him. If minister is unable to reach him, then how can…?
RAKESH NIGAM: Very strange. Harin Pathak is a very bold person. One or two jobs he did for me, and we exchanged bags. And things moved very smoothly.
TEHELKA: Which one? In the foreign deal?
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: That is the very reason that you have been in this business and have not been able to make a proper breakthrough. Your own, your person whom you are naming their own ministers…I got one job…just for a breakthrough. For six years this project, they were not getting any breakthrough. I was getting competition from companies like…people like Chaudhary and Nanda. I gave one CR and things started moving.
TEHELKA: CR means?
RAKESH NIGAM: One…

TEHELKA: One crore?
RAKESH NIGAM: For MTR.

TEHELKA: MTR is?
RAKESH NIGAM: Germany.

TEHELKA: Okay, that is a HAL thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: HAL thing.

TEHELKA: What was that?
RAKESH NIGAM: Engines. For six years they were getting fucked in Delhi and the Indian agent was screwing them.

TEHELKA: So Mr. Harin Pathak…
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah, but I don't want to name and very few people know about this.

TEHELKA: Haan.
RAKESH NIGAM: Very few people.

RAKESH NIGAM: I will give you an example of MTR. You must have heard of Daimler Chrysler?
TEHELKA: Which one?

RAKESH NIGAM: Daimler Chrysler. Mercedes people. Mercedes is a very small project for them. Daimler Chrysler is a big group for defence.
TEHELKA: Daimler Chrysler…in Germany?

RAKESH NIGAM: Massive…bloody this thing. And I am doing job for them.
TEHELKA: In the ministry?
RAKESH NIGAM: In the ministry.

TEHELKA: That one you succeed in.
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

TEHELKA: In HAL? That is a jet trainer, I think that…no?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no, no. This is for the ALH. Advanced light helicopters. ALH.

TEHELKA: Okay. Already signed deals?
RAKESH NIGAM: No, not deals. Just…

TEHELKA: Breakthrough?
RAKESH NIGAM: Got a breakthrough.

TEHELKA: That is a big thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: It has been going on for seven years. And the bloody Indian agent was screwing these people. Dr. Fisher and Heinz. I gave him results within a time of 20 days.

TEHELKA: Do the same for us also.
RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. We have to develop a confidence in each other. Everyone…look, in Delhi, Mr. Mathew, you will find bloody out of 100 people, 90 people who will tell you, "I am this, I am that and I am accessible to the Prime Minister." Little do you know that they are only accessible to the gardener of the Prime Minister.

TEHELKA (laughs): That is true.
RAKESH NIGAM: I have been in this business for…I own a very low profile.
TEHELKA: Okay.

RAKESH NIGAM: You may not even heard of my name by now.
TEHELKA: Yeah, first time I am…

RAKESH NIGAM: Defence Secretary appointment, I came to know one-and-a-half months back. I told DEEPAK GUPTA. He said, "Nigam sahab, Rakesh bhai, really I am astonished…" And the rapport I have, is seen to believed.

R.K. GUPTA: PM told BANGARU LAXMAN, whatever Gupta says, do it.
PANT: Haan.

R.K. GUPTA: Like for now, you will not give one crore or two crore.
PANT: Give one or two, that's it. Let's say one.
TEHELKA: One. One crore.

R.K. GUPTA: It's the first order. First take the order and get them under your thumb. Then…first you give more, then you give less.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: With this party, we have built their RSS headquarters in '67.
TEHELKA: Delhi?

R.K. GUPTA: Delhi. In '67 I spent more than 50 lakhs of rupees to build that headquarters.
TEHELKA: In '57?
R.K. GUPTA: '67.

TEHELKA: '67. In Jhandewalan?
PANT: Jhandewalan.

R.K. GUPTA: It's built by me.
TEHELKA: Hmm?

R.K. GUPTA: It's built by me. Free-of-cost.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: We know anybody there…you go there and say, "Who made this? It's very good. Who made it?" And they will tell you, "It was made by Raj Kumar, a RSS worker, free of cost." And they tell this to everyone.
TEHELKA: Hmm?

R.K. GUPTA: They're telling this to everyone.

R.K. GUPTA: In Emergency, I gave…given them one crore 10 lakhs when nobody was even prepared to listen to telephone calls. And 500,000 dollars. In London and USA.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: And became the sole trustee of Friends of India Society International. This is a society floated by me. I'm still sole trustee. When you come to me, I will take you to BJP. You will see how…see how they respect.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

TEHELKA: You are basically from RSS?

[Gupta nods]

PANT: He's the trustee…

R.K. GUPTA: You have to have this big heart [makes a gesture] if you want to work. This much I can guarantee you, your money will never go waste. I only take personal responsibility.
TEHELKA: Thank you, sir. Thank you.

R.K. GUPTA: Because I can force them.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

R.K. GUPTA: I can also slap on the face if they don't do the work. If it's not paid back, I will have to pay the money. I will pay, don't worry.
TEHELKA: Sir, I have full faith of you. Hundred per cent faith.

R.K. GUPTA: Monday evening I will be on your work. But you have to have some money.
TEHELKA: Okay, I have

R.K. GUPTA: You know…[now explains along with hand gestures]…"Sir, this is five lakh rupees."
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: When I do the work…I put 20-25 lakhs in my pocket…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

R.K. GUPTA: I will just go and give to these…. Like Defence Secretary…five lakhs…[dismisses with hand gesture] Then Ved Prakash Goyal. Five lakh rupees for the party. "Can I take this work, sir?" Then I go to BANGARU LAXMAN. You just give them for no work. There are people who don't even….
TEHELKA: We have to give…BANGARU LAXMAN?

R.K. GUPTA: No, not BANGARU LAXMAN. Ten lakhs is too less. I will give to Defence Secretary.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Then Ved Prakash Goyal, treasurer of the party.
TEHELKA: Okay. Treasurer of the party?

R.K. GUPTA: Treasurer of BJP.
TEHELKA: Yes.

PANT: Ved Prakash Goyal.
TEHELKA: Okay, Brajesh.

R.K. GUPTA: Not Brajesh…
PANT: Ved Prakash.
TEHELKA: Okay, Ved Prakash.

R.K. GUPTA: Brajesh's price is one crore. I don't want to go to him with money.

[Pause]

R.K. GUPTA: We will handle them. Don't worry.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: You keep Rs. 20-25 lakhs ready. Then blast your work.
TEHELKA: Okay, sir.

TEHELKA: No, I am telling that, because we have already spent more than 45 lakhs of rupees.
R.K. GUPTA: That is your job. We are spending crores.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: Come to the office, then you will know how much expense we're maintaining.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: Bangaru, I can walk in any moment I like.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Do you think I will take you and then give…?
TEHELKA: No, no, sir, tell me, how do I transfer the money? Tell me?

R.K. GUPTA: Hmm. You give the money to me, I will give it to him…
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: …at my leisure and whenever I think opportunity is right.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: As I keep on giving every month.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: …almost three-four crores.
TEHELKA: Okay.

TEHELKA: Sir, I have to give twenty-five to your hand?

R.K. GUPTA: Yeah. And you tell me the work also. So that we have to do the work properly.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: You know, unless your file is prepared from below, nothing can be done.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Because up to Joint Secretary and Under Secretary, I have…arrangements.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Pay money, get work done.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: So from below the users, file must move properly.
TEHELKA: Okay, sir.

R.K. GUPTA: If there are three bids…
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: …you are also one of them.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: …then they have the option to select you and reject others.
TEHELKA: Okay, sir.

R.K. GUPTA: But from…somebody should work from below, no?
TEHELKA: Okay. But, sir when…?

R.K. GUPTA: Your work will be done. You will see the result in three-four months. Immediately you will start getting orders.
TEHELKA: Okay, that I have to give that 25 to your hand…
R.K. GUPTA: Yeah.

TEHELKA: …and you will give that…[gestures]. That is not my headache.
R.K. GUPTA: But when your principal comes…
TEHELKA: Haan.

R.K. GUPTA: I'll then take him to our treasurer. Not Brajesh Mishra.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: I don't deal with them because they are bureaucrats.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: This is…
TEHELKA: BJP treasurer?

R.K. GUPTA: …the treasurer and the president.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: I have been asked by…PM only to meet with them and they will get our work done.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Settle with them…
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA (continuing): …your work is done…we will pay you so much.
TEHELKA: Sir, I don't know how to work out. That is the problem.

R.K. GUPTA: And we take from them. In six months the project will be built up. Complete project will be built up.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Then at the highest level…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

R.K. GUPTA: Secretary of Defence is the highest boss.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: That "Sir, we are interested in this project. How should we go?" Once you have built ground below. Then he will say, "Okay, I will charge this much. One per cent, one-and-a-half per cent." Then rest you manage below. Everything. Users and other things…. Then when 40 crores…total expense how much is possible…six per cent, seven per cent, eight per cent.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: Okay?
TEHELKA: I got it.

R.K. GUPTA: Then we give…when the tender is given to us…we are the lowest, we have been granted… They'll place orders, open the LC. It is very, very clear.

R.K. GUPTA: I have direct relations with the Defence Secretary.
TEHELKA: Sir, Naresh Nigam entered the plan and I had some doubts about him.

R.K. GUPTA: Nigam is a small type of person. Give him 10,000, 4,000, plane ticket to Bombay. We oblige him.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: How does it matter? When the game is big, when I am expecting commission this year…myself commission…100 crores…
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: …why should I bother about him, giving him, two, three, four, ten lakhs?
TEHELKA: Yeah, yeah, that's all.

R.K. GUPTA: I don't care.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

R.K. GUPTA: He's a small timer.
TEHELKA: Now I got it, the picture, sir.

R.K. GUPTA: Defence Secretary when he wants money, I'll give him with my own hand. That, "Sir, this is a cheque worth two crore…" So I'll tell your principal to deposit in his account.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Hmm.
TEHELKA: That's all.

R.K. GUPTA: And this party people…that they are supposed to settle for two per cent.
TEHELKA: Haan.

R.K. GUPTA: Out of 40 crore order, suppose it's one crore per annum.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

R.K. GUPTA: For one or two crore.
TEHELKA: That also…that also is sanctioned.…one crore?

R.K. GUPTA: No, no. Just listen. When the order is with us…LC is with us…then we are paid. Drawdown 30 per cent payment they give, no? Twenty per cent payment. When you get the payment, then you pay them. Which account, they will nominate it. Send. Finished.
TEHELKA: That's all.

R.K. GUPTA: Now we have beaten everybody. Americans had come, Israelis had come, South Africans had come. European friends.

[Pause]

TEHELKA: Sir, Defence Minister, he will not take the money.
R.K. GUPTA: Who?

TEHELKA Defence Minister.
R.K. GUPTA: We have already tied with Jaya Jaitly.

TEHELKA: Tie-up?
R.K. GUPTA: Samata Party General Secretary.

TEHELKA: Okay.
R.K. GUPTA: Defence Minister. One or two per cent. We'll settle with Jaya Jaitly. It's her job to give him or not give him. Our file is signed. She takes the money.
TEHELKA: That's all.

[Gupta makes gesture]

R.K. GUPTA: Ranjan Bhattacharya is doing for himself. He is Prime Minister's son-in-law.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: You know that?
TEHELKA: PANT Sahib told me.

R.K. GUPTA: He is Prime Minister's son-in-law. I've cut him into pieces. I've gone through the party. PM can't say no. Party's getting 100 crores. He won't say, "No, my son-in-law's getting 100 crores. Leave it." We are his father's father [pointing to himself].

TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: And he doesn't know my name also, though he has been coming to my office hundred times. He doesn't know that my uncle has cut me to pieces. He calls me uncle. I've cut him to pieces. He doesn't know it. Who's the man who has taken half the order and we're left high and dry. He's still trying to find out who is the man behind it. He can't find out. If he find out then I'm not a good operator.

[T gets up and shakes Gupta's hand]

TEHELKA: Okay. No, the people told me. Mr. PANT also told me. In fact, users also told me that this man is behind CSF-Thomson.
R.K. GUPTA: Then they get more money.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: These generals-venerals, you keep…you strike them off. There's a question of fighting for the divide.
TEHELKA: And I got the information that CSF-Thomson is not allowiong to...West End into...enter the defence sector.

R.K. GUPTA: We will see.
TEHELKA: This is the...scenario.

R.K. GUPTA: That is…we have to fight for that. We would have fought against him and then got this order.

[Pause. T makes another drink]

TEHELKA: Ranjan is powerful man, hain?
R.K. GUPTA: Naturally.

TEHELKA: Last time PM visited in US…for that function. That time the CSF-Thomson people tie up with Ranjan in US.

R.K. GUPTA: They met the PM?
TEHELKA: Yeah, they met the PM.

[Pause]

TEHELKA: So, our people went there to met PM.
R.K. GUPTA: Aah.

TEHELKA: We won't allow to…(laughs)
R.K. GUPTA: You know...how to cut him into business. The party will first go to PM. "Party is getting so much of money from them. We want to do this work."

TEHELKA: Not individual?
R.K. GUPTA: Not individual.
TEHELKA: Party gets it.

R.K. GUPTA: The Prime Minister has no guts to say he should be given, not party.
TEHELKA: Naturally (laughs).

R.K. GUPTA: So we operate in a different manner.
TEHELKA: Yeah. Operate it through party…Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: And Ranjan knows my strength in the party. The RSS.
TEHELKA: That is the backbone of BJP.

R.K. GUPTA: Once he comes to know his uncle was operating behind the scene, he'll come running here that "Uncle, why are you doing this."

[Both laugh]

R.K. GUPTA: "You are not talking to your uncle. Uncle is bloody no man. You are the PM's son-in-law. Uncle has given his life for the this...party."
TEHELKA: Hmm.

R.K. GUPTA (pointing to his left leg): I have four bullet wounds here.
TEHELKA: Hmm?

R.K. GUPTA: I have four bullet wounds in this leg. It's all because of them. 1947…6th March, 1947. Riots. I got six, four bullet wounds here.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: Atal-ji has been staying in my house for 17 years.
TEHELKA: Who? Atal-ji. Here?

R.K. GUPTA: Chandigarh. Here, he has come three-four times.

R.K. GUPTA: Sukhoi deal I got done.
TEHELKA: Okay. Sukhoi?

R.K. GUPTA: I got done.
TEHELKA: Russian deal? Sometime…?

R.K. GUPTA: I called them.
TEHELKA: Why? From Russian deal?

R.K. GUPTA: T-90 I got done.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: They signed. They were very happy. They said, "It is very easy now." I said, "Look, you do like this, your files will be locked here." Again they…something went wrong with them. When the files were locked, then they came back. I said, "You can't eat up money like this. Because we are not eating your money ourselves. We have to pay to persons. The user will bloody well tell you if there are hundred defects in your product. Or bureaucracy will put a spoke in the wheel. Politicians will say it is not good. I told them, "You can't eat up people's money. Whom you have promised." So they came back to their senses.
TEHELKA: It's a game, basically.

R.K. GUPTA: They were here for seven days. They studied everything. Then they spoke to me, "Send your son. We'll do the agreement." I said, "First decide finally. So that he goes there, again you say 'No, no, no. This much percentage.'" I said, "Whatever was decided. We're not working for free. Our percentage, party percentage, bureaucracy. Everything should be first told on the telephone. Then we'll come."

[Pause]

R.K. GUPTA: After we bring up your project to a level… Then we can jointly sit and assess.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

R.K. GUPTA: How much commission do we pay to each person? The complete equipment bill is 12 to 15 per cent. But 50 per cent they take back.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: With Russians that is the practice. They take back 50 per cent.
TEHELKA: Take back?

R.K. GUPTA: They have Swiss accounts or other accounts, wherever…they channelise and all.
TEHELKA: The Russian accounts, everything, is in dollars or Indian currency?
R.K. GUPTA: In dollars.

[Pause]

R.K. GUPTA: For our expenses, they were opening LCs for us.
TEHELKA: Okay.

R.K. GUPTA: They will import something from here to their country at a little higher price so that our margin is…

PANT: …six crores that was…924 crore. That was the biggest deal he made.
TEHELKA: 924 crore that was the Czechslovakian deal.
PANT: Czechslovakian deal. Skoda.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Pipeline and other things.
TEHELKA: Pipeline…it is a defence deal?

PANT: No, pipeline. Petroleum and Natural Gas and all…
TEHELKA: That is what that Oman, that Oman, that pipeline of…

PANT: Gandhidham, he used to go. GAIL, Gas Authority Of India. He used to go to Gandhidham, Gujarat, Jaipur and all those places.
TEHELKA: He is going to be, paid for also in that dealing.
PANT: 924, 26 crore only was there.

TEHELKA: This man was the mediator?
PANT: Haan, he is the man basically, who got it done.

TEHELKA: Okay.
PANT: That's how he got the money for his farmhouses and all this everything. Twenty crore was paid.
TEHELKA: Twenty-four crore.

TEHELKA: You have any idea, about recently, how many deals he has struck?
LT.COL. BERRY: Must be around two-three deals.

TEHELKA: Big deal?
LT.COL. BERRY: I suppose, because I have not been involved on those. I don't know. Because the naval and air force, yes, naval particularly.

TEHELKA: Submarine deals?
LT.COL. BERRY: Not submarine, connected with submarine.

TEHELKA: With whom?
LT.COL. BERRY: I don't know the name of the company. Some KGB. Not KGB, KBG. Something like that, some Russian company only.

TEHELKA: It's for the Navy?
LT.COL. BERRY: Haan, that he has.

TEHELKA: That is a weapon or something else?
LT.COL. BERRY: It is a system, complete system.

TEHELKA: He was the middleman?
LT.COL. BERRY: Haan, yeah.

TEHELKA: He played the key role?
LT.COL. BERRY: Key role or sometimes luck plays the key role.

TEHELKA: But he succeeded?
LT.COL. BERRY: He succeeded.

TEHELKA: Okay, then any other deals he struck?
LT.COL. BERRY: Not my knowledge, but I believe long back he has done some deal in tyres and thing like that.

TEHELKA: For whom? MoD? Defence?
LT.COL. BERRY: For air force I think.

TEHELKA: Air force? That is what kind of tyre?
LT.COL. BERRY: Hmm.

TEHELKA: Tyres means what kind of tyre.
LT.COL. BERRY: These air force tyres.

TEHELKA: Fighter, fighter tyres?
LT.COL. BERRY: Yeah, it is a big thing. I mean, volume-wise.

TEHELKA: That's also from Russia?
LT.COL. BERRY: Yes, his base is Russia.

TEHELKA: Not, in the European countries?
LT.COL. BERRY: He is trying to build up in Germany, but slowly, slowly.

TEHELKA: He's not succeed?
LT.COL. BERRY: You see, nothing succeeds like success.

TEHELKA: Exact, that is true. I want to know something about Sahni, that is what I am asking you, and what other deals you know.
LT.COL. BERRY: I don't know any other particular things.

TEHELKA: He told me that he is planning to, he is on the way of T-90 tanks.
LT.COL. BERRY: He is trying, yes, let's see whether he succeeds or not.

TEHELKA: No, that day I saw some of the Russian was sitting with him.
LT.COL. BERRY: Hmm.

TEHELKA: Russian was sitting with him.
LT.COL. BERRY: There are plenty of Russians…keep coming. That there will be no dearth of people coming here.

TEHELKA: Okay.
LT.COL. BERRY: That is not to be taken as a whether he can do your work.

LT.COL. BERRY: Whatever he is saying is right that way and things are workable.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: If we put a political pressure…

LT.COL. BERRY: Exactly, exactly. We'll talk about these things tomorrow. First you talk.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: That talks will be done, that is our internal matter. Your technical advice is that this product can beat others.

LT.COL. BERRY: Can fit into…
KALIA: …and get into the next lot.

LT.COL. BERRY: Next lot.
KALIA: Do not interfere with what has happened so far. Talk about the next lot. You should come into that, whatever evaluation…new piece…

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: So we will put pressure for it. If it doesn't become final. Behan chod, so we will put pressure on him this way if it is not…we will get the orders. When the next one will come, then the inquiry will start on it.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: And do you have any idea whether the government will take out a fraud one or not.
KALIA: I'll tell you.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Okay.

KALIA: He is basically himself involved in it.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Hmm? Who?

LT.COL. BERRY: Technical…technical I can tell you…
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Rest, whichever government is there that will take it out, that I will find out myself.

LT.COL. BERRY: All right. Okay. If that's the way you want to do, it's okay.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: No, no, I will tell him. But the question is in this he has no role. You try to understand this matter.

LT.COL. BERRY: All right. Okay.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: His role will come when he will handle this particular file. At this point of time, I wanted your advice…
LT.COL. BERRY: That technically…

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: That this product is better than the competitors. You say "yes"…
LT.COL. BERRY: Technically it is workable.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: You are not understanding what I'm trying to say. Workable means it is at par. What they are claiming that minus 40 degree, whether it is…
LT.COL. BERRY: No, minus 40 is more than par but it is got to be put by them that it should be…this is what we want.
KALIA: How many pieces do they require which will work under minus 40?
LT.COL. BERRY: Yes, yes.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Listen to me, isn't it Sukhwinder's subject?

LT.COL. BERRY: No, no.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Once he came to me with some specific issues of his product. Do you remember that at that time you said it was his subject?
LT.COL. BERRY: No…technical… If I can…he'll also understand…no problem.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: No, why I am saying…
LT.COL. BERRY: Technically…

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: …Probably it is not Signal's demand.
LT.COL. BERRY: No, this is not Signals. This is not Signals.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: This is not Signal?
LT.COL. BERRY: No, no.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: So we…
LT.COL. BERRY: Bombay. It is…
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: It is infantry…do they require?

TEHELKA: This is the infantry. They are the users.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Shankar Prasad?

TEHELKA: Shankar Prasad.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: So, then if he can…

KALIA: But Signal…person is included in the committee. That is all.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: No, but demand generates from…

LT.COL. BERRY: The infantry.
KALIA: Infantry.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: That's the main thing. So now we have direct access to Shankar Prasad. So then we…I can get you this kind of personal attention where he can push…
TEHELKA: Already Mr. PANT talked to Shankar Prasad this matter. He agreed…this is good thing. He agreed.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Mr. PANT…you should get it from very high level. You should understand…

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: I will put you to Mr. Randhawa, who is my technical operator. Then he can advise us how to go about. You are agreeing?
TEHELKA: I agree.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Then we can. We'll find a way. Once we play the game, we'll find some route. Sir, Bangaru's line also is excellent, hain?
PANT: You go side by side. Both.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Bangaru's…trouble with him is…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: We have to pay money straight away.
TEHELKA: We can pay the money. No problem.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Okay.
TEHELKA: Tell me how much?

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: No, I will tell you. I can't say like this.
TEHELKA: Without money this won't be work out. Very frankly.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: The main thing is that, you have to give me the comparison of El-Op…
TEHELKA: Price-wise? Price list?

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: No. Price is not the issue. The issue is the technical comparison. If we have to beat our enemy, we should know what we are doing.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

PANT: Technical comparison. El-Op and CSF.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: And if your product is better…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: …you will enter into the game.

[Pause]

PANT: I'll get it from Tewari.
TEHELKA: Yeah, yeah.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: You've…your product is better?
TEHELKA: More and more better.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Then I'm sure we can enter.

[Pause]

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: If PCO is broken…
PANT: Hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Then we'll have very big business.
PANT: Hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: We want to beat them.

[Someone knocks on the door and Sahni talks to him]

TEHELKA: Then can you…can you…sir, we can work out Bangaru line also.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: I can. Hundred per cent. Not even ninety-nine. Let's not talk blah-blah. We should work…if tomorrow we fail even in the technical end…

TEHELKA: Hmm.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: …there is no use talking to Bangaru.

TEHELKA: Yeah. Okay.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: I have to make a full case, draft a letter, make a note…why you should be taken.
TEHELKA: Okay, hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: If he speaks…
TEHELKA: Hmm.
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: ...and he coins

TEHELKA: Hmm
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: …that tomorrow the note comes from the ministry.

TEHELKA: Hmm
MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: …that "Nothing doing, these products are better," you are out.
TEHELKA: Okay.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Let me first say why you…I should be entertained.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: Then Bangaru line is hundred per cent.
TEHELKA: Okay.

MOHINDER PAL SAHNI: I have to prepare a note. On the paper I should be Napolean.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

Meanwhile, Colonel Berry is showing some entrepreneural spirit. He brings
Major S.J. Singh (Retd.) to meet West End in a five-star hotel hoping to take away a client from Mohinder Singh Sahni. Major Singh is a smooth customer.

He was involved with Bofors in the beginning in its deals in India around the
time that the company acquired its notorious reputation. Major Singh makes
a very interesting arms dealer. He starts off very colourfully. He has no
qualms about calling himself a 'fixer'. In the beginning he states how he
got a laser-guided bomb, which failed 5 tests out of 6, cleared.

TEHELKA: Sir, I met you that day.
MAJOR S.J. SINGH: Yes, we hardly spoke to each other. I was only listening and not speaking out.

TEHELKA: Okay, okay. Sir, where are you staying in Delhi?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: I stay in Gurgaon. DLF.

LT. COL. BERRY: He'll be able to handle the whole thing. You have the choices. You can ask him whatever you want to ask for that.
TEHELKA: Sir, recently you've done any big deal.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: I keep doing for others. I am, basically, you can call me a fixer. I will use a very crude word but that is what it is. Okay? Like when you are in trouble you come to me and I sort you out…your problem. When he is in trouble, he comes to me and then I have my friends at different levels. I have friends in the ministry, the bureaucracy, I have friends in the ministry, the politics side. I have my friends in the defence services whether it is army, navy, air force. And then I have friends at the junior level which give you information. So that's how things work…the last work where we met last time I did for him.
TEHELKA: For Mr. Sahni.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Yeah, there was a deal of Krasnopol. That was one 50 crore deal I…. It was organised by me. I got everything sorted out. It was fixed up
TEHELKA: In the Defence?

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: In the defence. I am talking in the defence. It was a Russian missile. Bomb. This is laser-guided bomb. It was not being cleared and…
TEHELKA: Due to what?

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Various reasons. Firstly, out of six tests, it was only one test which was successful. Five test failures. Then the bureaucracy was not at all in favour of it. They were totally against it inspite of pressure from some angles. So these were the various reasons and there were options available to them from French people, from Germany, but, ultimately, we were able to push it through as for the Russian…and now it is a repeat order.

TEHELKA: This is called smart ammunition something?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Yeah.

TEHELKA: Same thing.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Krasnopol is the name of the bomb.
TEHELKA: The bomb will go around 14 lakhs.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: The total deal was of 5,000. It was 150 crores. Now the fresh order will be again. There are lot of problems, but again because of my friend…because this is being used by the artillery.
TEHELKA: This will be used for the Bofors.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Various guns…so it depends on the charge now…Another bomb which is being propagated.
TEHELKA: Same American company?

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: No, no, one is Krasnopol…is Russian. The other is from South Africa. Now the South Africans are pushing it through their agent. So my job is not only to block that, but to see that the repeat order is given. Now we are waiting for the terms to be cleared as to whether if I do this job how much will you give me. If that understanding takes place we will clear this project. If it doesn't take place, someone else will take it. It is as simple as that…mathematics is very simple.

Major Singh reveals his relationship with Sahni, boasts of his relationship with a friend who is 'the head of the set up' today. He boasts about how he got a defence job cleared by his friend in three days.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: May I tell you something. I am not employee of Mr. Sahni. Number 1. Number 2, we met to be associate of each other.
TEHELKA: In the ammunition business?

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Yeah, from project to project. And I was introduced to him by a common friend. I had gone to my common friend for a diifferent job and in the due course of the conversation, he found out my connections in the ministry. He mentioned something and I said, "I can help you out if you want," without knowing what he was meaning. Immediately he jumped on the conclusion and he rung up Sahni…friend of mine. I would like you to meet anyway. That was an introduction. We came to understand. He met me two or three times. I wanted to know the person because it's not good to jump into anything without knowing the person with whom you are going to deal. And ultimately, on the third day, he again invited me and he said, "Would you like to join hands? On what terms? Because I would like you to work with us." I said, "No, I am not looking for a job. I am self-employed. I am holding three companies. I am managing director of two companies, chairman of three companies, so I don't need to look for a job and my companies are 25 years old. Not today."

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: So that's how we got into…and he said, "This is my job to be done" and he had tried this through many people and he was unable to get that job done.
TEHELKA: Which one? The smart ammunition?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Now the particular bureaucrat he wanted to reach, he could not reach. He tried his best and those people were kicked out from there. Now this bureaucrat is an old friend of mine for last 15 years. Okay? Who is now the head of the set-up.

TEHELKA: He is the Defence Secretary?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Anyway.

TEHELKA: It is excellent!
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Okay. Now he is a friend of mine. So I said, okay. I asked him, "This is the job to be done. Can you do it?" So he laughed and said, "Now the bastard has caught hold of you…" He used this word. I said, "Why are you calling…?" He said he tried his best and I have kicked out everyone. I have not allowed anyone to talk to me. So I said, "Forget about it. What you have done, you tell me now. This is the job that is to be done." So he said, "Okay, you want me to help you." I said, "When you said you want to help me, so yes this is what I want." He said, "Okay, let me see, and give me three days." On the third day we got everything cleared. Three days' time.

Major Singh's own background is intriguing. In his own words

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: I belong to a place called Rae Bareilly.
LT.COL. BERRY: Indira Gandhi's…

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi…Now Indira Gandhi's late husband Feroze Gandhi, I worked with him '52 and '57…
TEHELKA: Okay, that's excellent.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Okay. Indira Gandhi's family we knew inside out and they knew us inside out. We are ex-zamindars of that place. We don't belong to a pauper's family. Okay?
TEHELKA: Basically feudal landlords.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: My educational background is…I am M.A. in English from Lucknow University and also M.Sc. in Military Science from Staff College of…
TEHELKA: You are from NDA or from SS?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: No I am a direct entry, I am from the NCC.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: From Rae Bareilly we shifted to Delhi in 1960. We migrated to Delhi from that time. I have…I was in Services, in Army. In '71 war, I became war casualty and was boarded out on medical grounds with 80 per cent disability. But no one can see I had any disability. I was injured twice in '65 war and '71 war and I was awarded… recommended for MVC. Then I was recommended for MVC again. So both the times, I got…barred but I don't write my army rank anything. I don't talk about my army background because that is a negative point to do. Because then you lose your access to friends. Today the last Chief Ved Malik was my coursemate. The present chief who has come was six months junior to me…Padmanabhan.

TEHELKA: You know, you give me example…some example, then only I can work out.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: See, there are two things, which we should be very clear. One thing is that one needs to be honest and to be honest, it's not only good to be honest but it must also show to be honest…I've explained it, that is the purpose. No one can go to the court of law on the issue.

TEHELKA: Exactly, that is true.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Right, so it's only a reminder that this was the understanding between you and me…who's got the time and who's got the patience? Supposing it is a more of trust on which these deals are done. Something is going on now at the moment, the deal is…480 crores deal…the PNC is going on.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Right? They asked to drop down from 50 per cent…from the quoted price they offered to 10 per cent. Then they came to 20 per cent. They came down to 35 per cent. Now the gap is 20 to 35. Fifteen per cent gap now. The party approached, they approached minister, approached everyone, nothing happened because minister also knows that he cannot put his neck in a situation where he will be caught. And he is not the person who will ever put his neck. He is very clever.

TEHELKA: George Fernandes? Okay.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: So he will never put, he knows his survival…he is a 4-man party. He knows where he can survive. So the answer was…so this party came they started offering me half per cent. So I said, "Are you joking with me?" Then they said, "One per cent." I said, "Still you are joking." I said, "Five per cent." So from 5 per cent they came to 3 per cent. So now it will be between 3, three-and-a-half per cent and our job is from 35 to bring it to 28. So 7 per cent we are saving you.
LT. COL. BERRY: They are getting extra margin there.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Out of that, I am only sharing half with you. Fifty per cent, fair or unfair.
LT. COL. BERRY: See, because it will reach that stage.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Fair or unfair.
TEHELKA: Fair, fair.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Okay, so we say give me a proof that you will give me this three-and-a-half per cent, and that proof can be given by the bank guarantee.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: So now supposing they agree to three-and-a-half per cent, my gain out of that is half per cent. Three per cent will go to people.
TEHELKA: Those who are associated with you.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: No, no, the chap who is doing the job.
LT. COL. BERRY: Who will give the guarantee of the additional samples.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Who is the one who has to accept it, because he is the chairman of the PNC. Then in the PNC there is a financial controller…that fellow has to be taken into account. Then there are other people.

LT. COL. BERRY: There are a total of about 6-7 people there.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: They have to be taken care of. Everyone gets his about .25, half per cent. It comes to half per cent. I get half per cent and I am happy with that.

TEHELKA: So what are the deals which Mr. Sahni is doing? Is he a more intelligent choice than Mr. Singh would be?
LT.COL. BERRY: I'll tell you, I'll tell you now. Let him [referring to waiter] just go, I'll tell you the complete story.

[Pause as waiter makes tea. Berry asks Tehelka whether he can get S. J. Singh to come directly to the room. Tehelka agrees. Berry calls S. J. Singh on his mobile.]

LT.COL. BERRY: So I was saying ki as far as…
TEHELKA: Who's the better choice?
LT.COL. BERRY: Better choice would be S.J. Singh. I will put it any day. Because S.J. Singh is a sub-agent of Sahni.

TEHELKA: Sub-agent to…?
LT.COL. BERRY: Sub-agent or partner to Sahni.

TEHELKA: Sahni?
LT.COL. BERRY: Haan. So main person is S.J. Singh. It is just Sahni the name. That is why he is ready to sign for six per cent. Otherwise you will have to give 10 to 12 per cent there.
TEHELKA: Okay.

LT.COL. BERRY: So…and then this is the trick of the trade, that one must get into…and for every political adjustments one must…one has to be very, very sure…

TEHELKA: So what are his contacts like? What kind of deals he has done?
LT.COL. BERRY: (showing TEHELKA another sheaf of papers): I…I'll tell you. These are the type of…where he has been directly involved and directly helped. And Krasnopol ammunition for artillery…150 crores.

TEHELKA: Krasnopol ammunition?
LT.COL. BERRY: Haan, yeah. It's a Russian company.

TEHELKA: Which year was this? LT.COL. BERRY: Although Sahni is supposed to be the main this thing, but actually…because I have been dealing with Sahni for a long time…almost 10 years or so…

TEHELKA: He did it? Which year was this?
LT.COL. BERRY: Just…I think about six months back or seven months back.

TEHELKA: Six months back?
LT.COL. BERRY: Something like that.

TEHELKA: Hundred and fifty crores?
LT.COL. BERRY: Yeah.

TEHELKA: What was the commission then?
LT.COL. BERRY: Again…this I am not very sure as to how much amount of commission…

TEHELKA: We will ask him.
LT.COL. BERRY: This S.J. Singh will be…to tell you better.

TEHELKA: What else?
LT.COL. BERRY: Cornetti for 250 crores, which was done directly by him when he was not a partner to Sahni.

TEHELKA: Okay.
LT.COL. BERRY: As a matter of fact even Vipin Khanna was looking for him to become a partner. Because he can sign the things and [makes a gesture]…so…

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: I belong to a place called Rae Bareilly.
LT.COL. BERRY: Indira Gandhi's…

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi…Now Indira Gandhi's late husband Feroze Gandhi, I worked with him '52 and '57…
TEHELKA: Okay, that's excellent.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Okay. Indira Gandhi's family we knew inside out and they knew us inside out. We are ex-zamindars of that place. We don't belong to a pauper's family. Okay?
TEHELKA: Basically feudal landlords.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: My educational background is…I am M.A. in English from Lucknow University and also M.Sc. in Military Science from Staff College of…
TEHELKA: You are from NDA or from SS?
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: No I am a direct entry, I am from the NCC.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: From Rae Bareilly we shifted to Delhi in 1960. We migrated to Delhi from that time. I have…I was in Services, in Army. In '71 war, I became war casualty and was boarded out on medical grounds with 80 per cent disability. But no one can see I had any disability. I was injured twice in '65 war and '71 war and I was awarded… recommended for MVC. Then I was recommended for MVC again. So both the times, I got…barred but I don't write my army rank anything. I don't talk about my army background because that is a negative point to do. Because then you lose your access to friends. Today the last Chief Ved Malik was my coursemate. The present chief who has come was six months junior to me…Padmanabhan.

TEHELKA: You know, you give me example…some example, then only I can work out.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: See, there are two things, which we should be very clear. One thing is that one needs to be honest and to be honest, it's not only good to be honest but it must also show to be honest…I've explained it, that is the purpose. No one can go to the court of law on the issue.

TEHELKA: Exactly, that is true.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Right, so it's only a reminder that this was the understanding between you and me…who's got the time and who's got the patience? Supposing it is a more of trust on which these deals are done. Something is going on now at the moment, the deal is…480 crores deal…the PNC is going on.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Right? They asked to drop down from 50 per cent…from the quoted price they offered to 10 per cent. Then they came to 20 per cent. They came down to 35 per cent. Now the gap is 20 to 35. Fifteen per cent gap now. The party approached, they approached minister, approached everyone, nothing happened because minister also knows that he cannot put his neck in a situation where he will be caught. And he is not the person who will ever put his neck. He is very clever.

TEHELKA: George Fernandes? Okay.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: So he will never put, he knows his survival…he is a 4-man party. He knows where he can survive. So the answer was…so this party came they started offering me half per cent. So I said, "Are you joking with me?" Then they said, "One per cent." I said, "Still you are joking." I said, "Five per cent." So from 5 per cent they came to 3 per cent. So now it will be between 3, three-and-a-half per cent and our job is from 35 to bring it to 28. So 7 per cent we are saving you.
LT. COL. BERRY: They are getting extra margin there.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Out of that, I am only sharing half with you. Fifty per cent, fair or unfair.
LT. COL. BERRY: See, because it will reach that stage.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Fair or unfair.
TEHELKA: Fair, fair.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Okay, so we say give me a proof that you will give me this three-and-a-half per cent, and that proof can be given by the bank guarantee.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: So now supposing they agree to three-and-a-half per cent, my gain out of that is half per cent. Three per cent will go to people.
TEHELKA: Those who are associated with you.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: No, no, the chap who is doing the job.
LT. COL. BERRY: Who will give the guarantee of the additional samples.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

MAJ. S.J. SINGH: Who is the one who has to accept it, because he is the chairman of the PNC. Then in the PNC there is a financial controller…that fellow has to be taken into account. Then there are other people.

LT. COL. BERRY: There are a total of about 6-7 people there.
MAJ. S.J. SINGH: They have to be taken care of. Everyone gets his about .25, half per cent. It comes to half per cent. I get half per cent and I am happy with that.

TEHELKA: So what are the deals which Mr. Sahni is doing? Is he a more intelligent choice than Mr. Singh would be?
LT.COL. BERRY: I'll tell you, I'll tell you now. Let him [referring to waiter] just go, I'll tell you the complete story.

[Pause as waiter makes tea. Berry asks Tehelka whether he can get S. J. Singh to come directly to the room. Tehelka agrees. Berry calls S. J. Singh on his mobile.]

LT.COL. BERRY: So I was saying ki as far as…
TEHELKA: Who's the better choice?
LT.COL. BERRY: Better choice would be S.J. Singh. I will put it any day. Because S.J. Singh is a sub-agent of Sahni.

TEHELKA: Sub-agent to…?
LT.COL. BERRY: Sub-agent or partner to Sahni.