Yossarian sidled up drunkenly to Colonel Korn at the officers' club one night
to kid with him about the new Lepage gun that the Germans had moved in.
"What Lepage gun?" Colonel Korn inquired with curiosity.
"The new three-hundred-and-forty-millimeter Lepage glue gun,"
Yossarian answered.
"It glues a whole formation of planes together in mid-air."

Catch 22, Joseph Heller

We at Tehelka.com managed to sell the Lepage 90, the ALION and the Krueger 3000 to the Indian defence establishment - ostensibly fourth generation hand-held thermal cameras and, needless to add, non-existent.

This is the story of how we did it.

It all started with Senior Section Officer Sashi Menon, in the Ministry of Defence, wanting to make some money from arms dealers. We at Tehelka.com floated a fictitious arms manufacturing company, based in London, called West End International. We were in search of a product whose indent existed in the Indian Army. We also wanted to get an entry into the lowest end of the defence chain

and work our way upwards through the Indian scenario of graft. Here Sashi
Menon, after getting a monetary incentive, takes us to Brigadier Anil Sehgal's house in New Delhi. Sehgal is the deputy director in DGOS, a crucial army procurement post. Brigadier Sehgal and Sashi Menon give us the two things
that we need - a defence product and an entry into the gravy train.

SASHI MENON (to Sehgal): Today we got that Malaysian binoculars. QA manual. Quality Assurance…call it as manual type. I think you might not have seen. Today there…there is a bunch of…one book, booklet is there. Sponsored by Malaysia…. BRIG. ANIL SEHGAL: I know. I've seen that.

SASHI: Haan.
BRIG. SEHGAL: …in which ADC has written that this should be handed over to W.E.
SASHI: Haan, W.E. Of course.
TEHELKA: Sir, you have to tell us what are the things which, what we should do…because…this is a field…
BRIG. SEHGAL: This is a very vast field. It's a very, very vast field.

TEHELKA: We are the people who have absolutely no…

[Sashi comes and sits next to Sehgal.]

BRIG. SEHGAL: Okay.

BRIG. SEHGAL (continuing where he left off): There is an annual requirement…what I foresee…at present, of present equipment of…about 10,000 II tubes per year. And in the next four to five years I have not yet calculated.

TEHELKA: Huge purchases. And those people who are geared…
BRIG. SEHGAL: …good period. I stay in the background…. What I am telling you, don't discuss it with anyone. It's J ust between…not meant for your ears also, but then…

SASHI: That way you can put in a peg and prepare it.
BRIG. SEHGAL: If you can find someone to manufacture the ammunition. That 's also in a big way.

TEHELKA: Where do you want me to go…from Russia, Israel? I have got base in New York, I have got a base in Canada, Argentina, Chile I have got.

BRIG. SEHGAL: See, now these II tubes…
TEHELKA: France. They'll be coming to you.

BRIG. SEHGAL: France they've been happily...I'll be very frank. You have to break this…this thing…of BE-Delft. BE-Delft is a PSU, which was…India invested. As of late, there has been a certain policy that nothing would be imported. There are many people who are really interested in that. So you have to get the nexus broken up at the top. And this BE-Delft thing…

TEHELKA: If I become their authorized…
BRIG. SEHGAL: But BE-Delft is not taking anyone else.
TEHELKA: Okay.

BRIG. SEHGAL: BE-Delft is Bharat Electrical (sic) Delft. Delft is Holland.
TEHELKA: Holland. Okay.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Holland has branched out from itself after the sanctions. US sanctions. What you have to do is get little open...because they have been talking big. Yeah, we can do this much. But he [referring to SASHI] is aware of it, how much less. They have been taking us, taking us for a ride. And somehow the bureaucracy also. And things have been badly manipulated in the Ministry. I'll be very frank with this. Things have been manipulated in the Ministry that…delay things deliberately, to suit them.

[Drinks arrive. They toast each other]

BRIG. SEHGAL: He doesn't have…there are so many other things also which are coming in this. Like you have spares. I can give you which spares' indent was made. I can give you the last procurement price. Generally what happens, what the scene is. They are not aware till the last minute what rate it was taken at. That I can calculate and you will also do. Everyone has been coming up with an offer. But I said, "Look, first give me 10 lakhs, then we will talk."
TEHELKA: If they are not ready to place the information then the question of talking further does not arise. Who wants to discuss the future? Sir, in this I, my people are very clear. They have straight away said that "You go ahead and you be a part of the venture." It's not as if I am separate…would need a guide.

BRIG. SEHGAL: I can help in so many things. I will tell you where to go, whom to meet.
TEHELKA: Everything…meaning…you tell me everything.

BRIG. SEHGAL: But then, see, I can show you the way.
TEHELKA: Bilkul.

BRIG. SEHGAL: But you'll have to move on your own.
TEHELKA: Yes, yes, sir. Once you show us the way, we'll automatically follow it.

Soon enough comes a demand to be entertained in a five-star hotel.
Brigadier Sehgal comes there with a Lt. Colonel Sharma, who is an
army officer posted in the Air Force procurement section. Here,
they are entertained and disclose how to proceed.

TEHELKA: Sir, I want to ask…another one thing. One Mr. B. S. Yadav sitting in the Air Headquarters. It's a foreign cell. Sales he is dealing, I think in that.

LT. COL. SHARMA: They have got their own procurement. They are basically dealing with Russians directly.
LT. COL. SHARMA: Because those kind of PNCs [Price Negotiation Committee] and negotiations are done at the ministry level. We don't involve ministry in our world. We do it directly.
BRIG. SEHGAL: This behan chod, they've done a very smart thing. He has kept everything with him.
LT. COL. SHARMA: Fuck it, no CDA, nobody. We issue the tender, call the bloody parties, do the PNC, give the supply order. Screw you.

TEHELKA: Sir, this thing you have said, this we can…in this whatever you say, we can get everything done. We will…
LT. COL. SHARMA: No, but I told you. We are basically dealing with proprietory items. You have a tie-up with those people.

TEHELKA: We will get the tie-up done. With whoever you want, we will get a tie-knot, we'll get anything done.
LT. COL. SHARMA: All right.

TEHELKA: You tell us, you will only have to tell us who we should tie with and who we should knot up with, who we should tie the 'naada' with. We will do everything. And whatever you ask, from a pin to anything you wish…
LT. COL. SHARMA: Thursday…on Thursday come to Room No. 221 at Vayu Bhawan.

LT. COL. SHARMA: Don't they give four options in [Kaun Banega] Crorepati?
TEHELKA: Yeah, okay, okay, okay.

LT. COL. SHARMA: We'll give you 10 options. The rest of the calculations you will do.
TEHELKA: Yes, yes. All that's our work.

BRIG. SEHGAL: So, I will give you the details of the ammunition immediately.
TEHELKA: Fine.

BRIG. SEHGAL: The biggest one.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay, okay. That one. If you have understood the last line.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Right?
SASHI: Sir's Air Force thing is there…

BRIG. SEHGAL: That I have said. How much ammunition we need…you'll go crazy trying to find out. Behan chod…who will supply this much stuff!
SASHI: Yes, the way BE-Delft is roaming around. Where will they get it?

After enjoying the hospitality of West End International at a five-star hotel, Brigadier Sehgal demands Rs. 2 lakh to give further documents relating to the procurement of Hand-Held Thermal cameras and other equipment that West End might be interested in supplying to the Indian Army. He accepts Rs. 20,000 and a little while later another Rs. 20,000. He also advises on how to proceed in the matter of bidding for the Hand-Held Thermal cameras.

TEHELKA: We have apologized for one thing, sir, that whatever is happening, we are going at a slow pace, but you can be rest assured…

[Gives money to Sehgal]

BRIG. SEHGAL: How much is it?
TEHELKA: This is 20 [thousand], sir.

BRIG. SEHGAL: What will I do with this?
TEHELKA: Whatever is coming, as it is coming, we are giving it to you slowly, slowly.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Let me tell you something. You keep this. Give it all tomorrow.

BRIG. SEHGAL: There are some principles in life.
TEHELKA: Haan, haan.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Whatever it contains that will increase later…meanwhile, I will tell you the items, the country of origin. When your talks progress, I will tell you where the country of origin is, it's on my fingertips.

BRIG. SEHGAL: I will tell you the name of the vice-chiefs, there are two vice-chiefs.
TEHELKA: Okay. Name will be told, name - question mark. Okay, sir.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Just write a letter to the Vice-Chief, MGO…that "we understand there is the requirement of hand-held HHTs." Our rate…keep our rate a bit low.
TEHELKA: All right, sir.

BRIG. SEHGAL: And send one to DGOS also.
TEHELKA: DG…

BRIG. SEHGAL: …OS.

BRIG. SEHGAL: I will take it from him today. Before that clear my dues. I have told the story…behan chod…that they are going for the TOT - transfer of technology. And as you had said, that you are ready to hand over the TOT. We would like to negotiate with you and we are ready to hand over the TOT. Behan chod, put that in also.
TEHELKA: All right, sir.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Even if TOT is a question mark, you at least ask because that man has to decide.
TEHELKA: Yeah, I can't decide.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Yeah, you can't decide. That's why I said, put a question mark.

BRIG. SEHGAL: See, the guy will think twice before signing…. Behan chod, see I have a counter offer and all these fuckers know about it. Either I give money behan chod to all of them. Include all. This mader chod is the way here. Not everyone gets the money. Whoever does the contract, gets it. You don't have to give.

BRIG. SEHGAL: So when you have initiated this to every fucker…
TEHELKA: From these five, either all of them will call, then all of them will ask.

BRIG. SEHGAL: All of them won't ask. I will tell you who will call, but when the next fucker knows that if I go in for this, when the contract has gone through, then behan chod…when a contract has gone through…why have you not gone through this? There is already a letter from so-and-so.
TEHELKA: Sir, that will kill the others' chances and he would straight come to me.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Then he will say why are you going for this? In view of the letter, why are you going for this?
TEHELKA: Sir, you go for this. And that is our company. The minute it is our company, we have got the thing. And then he will ask for his…his 10 per cent.

TEHELKA: So, it will go up to Lt. General.
BRIG. SEHGAL: Yaar, that goes on the powers of Brigadier Singh. May have to go to RM [Raksha Mantri] also.

TEHELKA: Who is RM?
TEHELKA: RM.

BRIG. SEHGAL: Raksha Mantri. It will go to Fernandes sahib also.
SASHI: He also…

BRIG. SEHGAL: That behen chod is so money-hungry that one can just go on about it.

[Sehgal gets up to make another drink]

BRIG. SEHGAL (continuing): All these politicians are chutiyas. They are all different behind your backs.
TEHELKA: Sir, before this, for groundwork sake, can't we meet the sahibs?

BRIG. SEHGAL: Listen to me, why I am telling you do this, because that is reaching the financial stage.
TEHELKA: Okay.

TEHELKA: So we'll have to pay there also. If we meet five, we have to pay them all. We have no idea whether they will or won't do the job.

BRIG. SEHGAL: What I am telling you…
TEHELKA: It will be singled down to one person.

BRIG. SEHGAL: And, thereafter, I will tell you who the bastard is. I don't want to teach all the tricks because it has reached such a stage. Send a letter to the Raksha Mantri also. Address it to the Raksha Mantri and give a CC to everybody, behan chod.

TEHELKA: RM first? Sir, then how he will collect the money?
BRIG. SEHGAL: Behan chod, there are numerous channels for him.

TEHELKA: Those people themselves will contact us.
BRIG. SEHGAL: They will come on their own, they will contact on their own. All that you have to ensure, that it can function upto minus 40 degrees.

TEHELKA: 34, not 40 degrees.
BRIG. SEHGAL: If you make it minus 40 degrees, then nothing like it. Between 40 and 50. Because basically, what, where we want it is the Siachen. There it is between [minus] 40 and 50.

While Senior Section Officer Sashi Menon had earlier given us some related documents regarding hand-held thermal cameras on various other occasions, he plied us with more of the same. Also, because we intended to expand our product range, the range of confidential documents that he supplied us varied from requirements of ammunition to II tubes to clothing and even helicopters. Here's a brief sampling of one such transaction.

TEHELKA: Now you have to find a way out of this…. What are you giving me today? You are giving me something just now?
SASHI: I can take out that other directory, you know…binoculars and specifications and catalogue and colour this thing…resolution.

TEHELKA: You have not brought anything now?
SASHI: That guy is doing like that…I told him I'll return it. There are his notes in it also. The note that the DG…the General has written.

SASHI: Process. And what has our General written? "Why we should process?" Something like that. It is still kept there. I want to replace it. I told the boss, and he asked me, "If he will replace it, but will he do it so soon? All right, as you wish. If you want to take it, you take it. If something comes out of it, good…"

TEHELKA: Achha, there are some scales too.
TEHELKA: That is the quantity?

SASHI: One battalion; 300 quantity. We have 360 battalions. One battalion; 36 quantity…36 piece for one battalion. So we have 360 battalion. 360 into 3

SASHI: I'll get it by the evening. There won't be any checking today.
TEHELKA: Take it now, na? I can arrange because I told them 3 o'clock I am getting all the documents in my hand. I have told them for the full money.

SASHI: All the documents, in the sense, you will get only the binocular and you will get the ammunitions…

TEHELKA: Ammunitions?
SASHI: I didn't get the ammunitions catalogue. Speak to the sahab. I told you to speak to the sahab. Or that thing he wrote about the procurement plan…

TEHELKA: Haan.
SASHI: 150mm ammunition…for procurement, for so much and so much amount. As in 21 cartridges. There are 21 cartridges that are imported.

TEHELKA: Achha?
SASHI: That has been given.

TEHELKA: What?
SASHI: 25 ammunition, 66 ammunition, 135 ammunition…150 for Bofors. They import all these, na?

As a matter of fact, Sashi himself was setting up different channels for us that would take us right upto Defence Minister George Fernandes and the then Minister of State for Defence, Harin Pathak. He was using state party functionaries of the BJP and Shiv Sena for lobbying with the politicians. For army officials and bureaucrats, he used their personal secretaries. Towards the end, Sashi's channels hit a roadblock. In the meantime, we at Tehelka had already opened two-three independent channels of our own which started bearing fruit. One such operator we tapped was Colonel Sayal (Retd). He was our conduit to many officers concerned with procurement. Here, Sayal has fixed a meeting with his old colleague Brigadier Iqbal Singh, PPO, Prospective Procurement Officer, a crucial post under the Master General Ordnance (MGO). Here is an excerpt from Brigadier Iqbal Singh's first meeting with Tehelka at his home.

LT. COL. SAYAL: Actually Sir, West End International is a firm, which is based in London. In London. So they have got this night-vision devices, night-vision goggles and all that. They have not entered into India so far, which they are intending to. They have a project, so they have got the assets to deal directly with manufacturers for Southeast Asia and this South Africa. About that, they want to promote that. So they have associated me also. I have got the brochures with me also, in case you have some time, so just glance through it. And if it is of any interest to you, for the defence forces.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Night-vision devices?
TEHELKA: Night-vision devices…it will work minus 40.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Minus 40? What spadework you've done so far?
LT. COL. SAYAL: Spadework is that there is a requirement for this kind of thing. CSF Thomson have got the order. Have not been able to, but their product is not up to the mark. So they are finding difficulties at the inspection stage itself. And now as the range is required quite a few, eight-nine companies are coming to this field. So this we secure. Further, this thing can be given as this is the time-bound project. So the aim is short-listing the name of the company; by seeing the product. Rest we will discuss later, because we have very little time left.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: You do like this…write a letter giving the details of product, along with a brochure, and you say that you are willing to give trials on no-cost basis. No-cost, no-commitment basis, and as such your equipment should be evaluated.

Ten days later, Brigadier Iqbal Singh meets the Tehelka undercover investigation team for further talks at a Delhi five-star hotel. He accepts Rs. 50,000 in bribes, advises West End on how to proceed further in the matter of the HHTs and agrees to lobby with Lt. Gen. Dhillon, Master General Ordnance (MGO), and other army officers on behalf of West End. He also impresses on us the importance of lobbying with Major General P.S.K. Choudary of the Weapons & Equipment (W.E.) division, as he is the most important at this stage.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: You cultivate Choudary and GSO. These two things.
TEHELKA: That is my part. I will do it. That...P.S.K. Choudary, that is your part.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: P.S.K. Choudary, I will try.
TEHELKA: Haan, please.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: That is...he doesn't come in my chain of command.
TEHELKA: Yeah. Sir, now I given 50,000 bucks. If you need more, you ask me. I will give you, no problem.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: See, it's like this. Your job should be done.
TEHELKA: Yeah, naturally, naturally.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: I am not looking for…
TEHELKA: Yeah. That US job - give me that entire thing. I will do it.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: One is not interested in money if your job is not done.
TEHELKA: Give me that also. That I will do.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: All right.
TEHELKA: No problem.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: And my job is to look after…up to MGO side. That is my department.

Brig Iqbal then spells out the commission that has to be given to Gen. Dhillon.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Cultivating MGO is my problem.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: But Choudary is not my department.
TEHELKA: But it is interconnected.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: I will try. I will find out somebody from his country-cousin side, whether he is game or not otherwise.
TEHELKA: Yeah, okay.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: All right, na? For Choudary, you also must find out somebody.
TEHELKA: Yeah. I will also find out. General Ahluwalia is close to Choudary?

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: No.
TEHELKA: No. He told me that.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Even I am not close to him. That is why I told you, I'll have to find somebody out. But Dhillon, yes, that is in my power. That meeting I will organise.
TEHELKA: Okay.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: If it cannot be done outside, I will organise in his office.
TEHELKA: No, not in office. That is a too dangerous thing.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: No, then I will organise in his house.
TEHELKA: Not in the office or house. Outside in Delhi. That is good.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Let us see.
TEHELKA: Okay.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: General Dhillon is the boss of everything here. Even if somebody says 'yes' somebody will say 'no'. If one person in the chain says 'no', your case is doubtful by that much margin.
TEHELKA: Okay, that General Ahluwalia said that Dhillon is not such a important person.

LT. COL. SAYAL: No, why I'll tell you…what he said was…that it is a W.E. matter. General Choudary's matter. That is what…

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: That is what I'm saying. You must cultivate Choudary. It's a weapon and equipment matter, fine. But it doesn't end there. Now W.E. wants to import something, or do whatever it is…it is his branch, MGO's branch…General Dhillon's branch which puts a spoke in between.

LT. COL. SAYAL: They just cannot get anything inside India. That is there.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: For example, we have imported some grenades. Okay? There were some range of 400-500 meters that were required to be achieved. That is only giving us 300. Now to accept that 300 or not to accept that 300…it is the…General Dhillon who plays the part.

TEHELKA: Sir, this…Gen. Dhillon, we can approach him?
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: That one can organise it. No problem.
LT. COL. SAYAL: We will organize it.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: See, there is no single agency who is an authority of importing anything and whatever they want. That you must appreciate.
TEHELKA: Yeah, exactly.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: If there are 10 agencies involved, everybody plays his role.
LT. COL. SAYAL: See…problem…the point is the file moves like this [gestures with his hand in regular forward intervals]. There are linkages.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: For the entire Indian Army, whosoever may be the importer, I am the person who is paying the money.
TEHELKA: Okay.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Whether it is Choudary or it is bloody DGPO or anybody else…

Here Brigadier Iqbal Singh takes his little gift from West End.

LT. COL. SAYAL: All that's fine, now whatever you have heard from Sir, you have to react to that. [to Brigadier Iqbal Singh] He's brought a small gift for you.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH (reacting to TEHELKA offering him money): What for, yaar?

LT. COL. SAYAL: Please, please.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: First let your job be done.
LT. COL. SAYAL: No, no.

TEHELKA: No sir, this is just a gift...small gift.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: For whom? Point is...

TEHELKA: Small gift.
LT. COL. SAYAL: Sir...

LT. COL. SAYAL: If you have a problem taking it with you, I will deliver it at your place.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: You do like this…let your job be done first.

TEHELKA: Small gift. That's all.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Let us say I am not able to help you. Then?

LT. COL. SAYAL (Very insistent): No problem.
TEHELKA: Sir, your mind is there with us.

BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: Mind is there, of course.
TEHELKA: Okay.

[Gives him a few wads of money. Brigadier Iqbal Singh takes it and hands it to Sayal who picks up his briefcase in full view of camera and puts away the money, counting and arranging it.]

TEHELKA: Please, fifty thousand is there.
BRIG. IQBAL SINGH: What I'm saying…

LT. COL. SAYAL: Sir, it's like this, introduce the MGO to us. Oh sorry, introduce Choudary and then we will look around.

Colonel Sayal also takes us to Major General Manjit Singh Ahluwalia,
Director General Quality Assurance. Gen. Ahluwalia starts off cautiously,
then in no time is swinging deep in it. Though Ahluwalia's role kicks
in a little later, he advises West End on the matter.

MAJ. GEN. MANJIT SINGH AHLUWALIA: Currently they are taking from a French company already.
TEHELKA: CSF-Thomson.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: See what happens is, understand the systems. Before we start procuring, you carry out user trials. Having done the user trial, we start the procurement process, which has started. There is already a linkage. If you think anybody is doing it without linkages, it is stupid to believe. The linkage is there. It has started, it has been trial evaluated, found successful, it's been booked. Now why should that man put in a new bloody spoke?

[Long pause]

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: It's already coming in. I doubt it, you can try it. Gen. P.S.K. Choudary is the person. Why should he do it, tell me?

[Long pause]

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: See, it's already started.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: Fine, no problem, I'm dealing with it in the sense…. You see, I don't do this procurement ex-import. That is capital work that is done by the ADG, W.E. Once it is introduced item, then we will place the indents. Then we will do it. Even if it is imported it will be done by PPO. If it is indigenous, we will do it here. As of now, it is still a W.E. item, and it is not likely. And at this juncture…let me tell you… Organisationally, not talking of the other benefits which you are suggesting for that person which he would also be getting from the other person. Even organisationally, they would not go about this task. It doesn't suit the organisation.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: You have to create a network and let me tell you it has got, you know, because the carrot at the other end is big for everybody. You need very deep pockets. Let's be very clear about it.
LT. COL. SAYAL: No, that is understood. That is the first step.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: So if you want it, if you have that type of a thing only then venture into it…because you know why? Now understand, if you are talking about a deal which is 20 crore here, 60 crore there, make a profit of 5 crore, saala, if you come to my house to meet me on Diwali, you can't talk without bringing Blue Label. If you are talking of bloody making a couple of crores of rupees, you can't give me bloody Black Label also? Isn't it? Let's be very clear about it.
TEHELKA: True fact, sir.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: So, if, when you are talking big, you got to also project big. You have had access to me because you know me [pointing towards Sayal]. If under normal circumstances you want to meet with me, tomorrow, you say…you are talking in terms of making a deal of a couple of crores, you can't tell me to come and have a meal with you at bloody DSOI.
LT. COL. SAYAL: That's right, very right.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: Then you have to say, "Sir, if you want that person…want to meet Gen. P.S.K. Choudary…" you say, "Sir, can we have dinner at Maurya Sheraton?"

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA (continuing): I am talking of the bare minimum. I am talking about when you come for Diwali, you come and say, "Sir, good evening, sir." Then you give me bottle of fucking…bloody…
LT. COL. SAYAL: RC…Hundred Pipers...

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: You know, be clear about it. And it's going on for donkey's years. And you're getting bloody small bits of information out of that chap. For…in two years, three years, a chap wants to know bloody up from there, "Yaar, I've already invested you so much. You tell me where is the file?" Now just to find out where the file is, and what is the position about it, it would have cost you easily 25-30 thousand rupees.
TEHELKA: Barabar.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: I've been here now two years, I must have met at least 35-40 people. Every other fucker knows bloody Putin. Everybody knows George Fernandes, everybody knows bloody Putin, everybody knows bloody Saddam. Then they say "get this done for me now."

[Pause]

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: And that…"here is a letter. I have got agency from bloody exports." There are 25 buggers who are carrying a letter from exports. This is big. The carrot at the other end is one bloody deal. This Kaun Banega Crorepati will go into fuckin' bloody… (all laugh) So, therefore, unless you are big…people are happy…that is what I am trying to explain.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: See it's a…it's a massive bloody system, there is no place for friends. There is no place for singleton. It requires very deep pockets. Nobody talks small. I'm being very honest with you. Every single person is…name dropping is the smallest part of the whole bloody transaction. And I also ended up with bottles of Black Label, Blue Label in this bloody business. Because it is easier to come and bloody talk; as I said, if you're going to talk about a couple of crores, even to say "good evening", you have to present that bloody "good evening" properly.
TEHELKA: That's true, very true.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: So it's not small; you are doing nothing, just to keep the contact alive. What do you achieve? Nothing. Because the time spent is three years. And the moment you show certain stinginess, that indicates that the bloody joker doesn't have any strength in him. The bloody contact breaks. Please understand one thing, there is a network in the whole thing. There are 20 different people who has got decision-making power at Stage Two can say at that particular point in time recommend or not recommend to a particular thing. Right? That is his authority at that stage. That authority is two years before the final deal is struck. Okay? Today I say I am that man. I have to say today whether I should say "Let me…let us trial and evaluate this thing." That's all my decision-making. That I have to say…suggest that we include this firm for trial evaluation. Once I have included it in trial evaluation, my utility is lost. I have no power after this. If it is found fit or not, somebody else down the ladder will take the decision. Now I have done my work today. My work is done, whether you have succeeded or not succeeded. You are telling me to write on a file "recommended firm AB included in the list" for some reasons which I have to justify and do my work for a deal which is…40-50-60 crores, now how much will you give me today to do this? After which I have no role to play. If I have written 'yes', I have written 'yes'…you get your 60-crore deal…I want it upfront today.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: It's a Rs. 60 crore deal and it's a very important line I have to write there. My line is written today…I take that line…so it's a 60 crore deal, I'm giving you a hypothetical figure, it's a 60 crore deal. How much will you say that you have to take now, tell me? Or for what amount should I put my neck out to write that important line? So it's not a Maurya Sheraton dinner (all of them laugh). Please understand… It can't happen as an individual with one item. It just can't…. I am trying to tell you why it can't happen. So you give me 10 lakh rupees. I don't know whether you get the order or not, I am not concerned. I have done my bit and there are 20 people in the chain like this. There is a man who has to go and do a certain evaluation. You have to feed him there. He does it, he doesn't do it, he writes 'no'. He screws up the whole bloody deal. He screws up everything what has happened up till now.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: So where do you go? Everybody wants to aim big. You have to assess it. This is how it is. Your organisation can do it…then go ahead but then as I told you where it stands. And when I say deep pockets that means bloody deep pockets. Please let's be very clear. When I say deep pockets I mean deep pockets… It is not chicken feed, I'm telling you at different stages, different fellows will come into in…and a lot of people have nuisance value. I may not be able to do anything. I might not be able to help you, but I can ruin it. That man has got a nuisance value. That nuisance value has to be compensated.

Our next meeting with General Ahluwalia takes place 10 days later. Here he accepts a token bribe of Rs. 50,000, which is never delivered to him.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: General Choudary nor myself, Dhillon, Mehta, would be…want to be seen there, just to eat food. We go five times a week to the bloody hotels in any case. Why should we be seen with Mr. Mathew? I don't know from before who is the representative of X company and 10 people walking outside seeing me.
TEHELKA: Exactly. That is a true fact.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: It doesn't happen like that; it's unlikely to happen. That's what I was trying to explain. It doesn't happen like that, and those people they are big players in this damn thing. They are...they are hosting parties every day, not for them; there are 20 different items in the singles…in the pipes.
TEHELKA: Okay.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: There is a famous bloody arms dealer called Mr. Chaudhary. You must have heard of him. Bloody everywhere he roams around in a 500 SEL Mercedes. Okay?
TEHELKA: He is a retired general?

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: No, no, his claim to fame was that his brother-in-law was a chairman of Alp…

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: …So he got into…so he got into the all-important MiG deal. So from the MiG deal he got into other deals. So it is a big…big game, each of these order is worth thousands. They have people representative sitting and just waiting. So it is a big group.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: It takes years to develop those contacts, it's an expensive habit to develop those contacts. It's because of a contact that he and I have over the years, that I am divulging some information.
TEHELKA: Yes.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: If it was yesterday's contact with, then why should I divulge you? If then your only way is by offering me an inducement, then it has to be a...the value of that inducement has to be appropriate. So, therefore, those chaps who are in the business of developing contacts, they were developing it for years. Before that, before they come and meet you, and it is that time when you don't need, when you are not asking me for anything, when you are not asking that General for Choudary...that you call him for dinner, that's the time he attends, but the result of it is, he is sitting in his place, that you tell the benefit of it is coming, not directly.

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: But this thermal imager also as I know. It isn't getting order. I will let you know. Give me about a week's time. I will move to Bangalore now...tomorrow and from there I am off to Hyderabad. I will let you know in a week's time. Okay?

[Ahluwalia gets up and stands and moves a bit.]

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: Okay.
LT.COL SAYAL: Small gift.

[Sayal goes near Ahluwalia and tries to hand him Rs. 50,000, which he accepts later.]

MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: This is, this is... Sayal please. Don't be…
LT COL SAYAL: Okay, later. Then…
MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: Okay.

TEHELKA: Sir, I can move.
MAJ. GEN. AHLUWALIA: Sorry, yes, I will.

MAJOR GENERAL S.P MURGAI: On that short-listing then they go in for new commercial bids. Okay? Now there you can…. So this is what is going to be done. At this stage of time, money doesn't play the role here. Because whether it is MGO or whether it is Defence Secretary…. Let me tell you one thing, because I have been dealing on day-to-day basis. They play no role at this point of time, because it is the users who have to indicate their preference.
LT. COL. SAYAL: Sir.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: They have to say that…this is the item, which is more suitable to us, after it has gone through the field trials. As far as the technical evaluation is concerned, it is only going to be to check conforms to specifications; as per the specifications laid down or as per the manufacturers' specifications. Once the company is short-listed…okay? That is the time when some influence can be exercised.
LT. COL. SAYAL: Sir.

TEHELKA: Before short-listing, you have to meet these people?
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Which people?

TEHELKA: Sir. One is the MGO. You have to meet these people - MGO and PPO and DGQA.
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: See, it is like this, at the moment DGQA doesn't….

TEHELKA: Okay, he told me DGQA is over.
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Hmm?

TEHELKA: That is not necessary now. But two people are important.
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: See, at the moment DGQA is not in picture, na?

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Don't go and knock at the wrong door.
LT.COL. SAYAL: No, I am…he straight away contacted me.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Because he is not in the picture. They have not received the sample, then where is the question of technical?

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Now as far as the MGO is concerned, let me tell you one thing. On 27th he is going abroad. His son is in America. He is going for one-month leave.
TEHELKA: Okay.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: He is going for one-month leave.
TEHELKA: Before we can?

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: For one month he will be out. He will be leaving on the 27th. He is here till Diwali, because he wants Diwali gifts. Only a fool can go before that. Okay? He is going on the 27th, on his private visit. Fine? That's what it is. As far Deputy MGO is concerned, let me also give another input. He is already…he is waiting to move out. I think by end of November or 1st week of December, he should be going as a… LT. COL. SAYAL: Okay sir, MGO is also retiring in April.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: In end of March. See point is, you get some more information. The point is very clear. When, let us say, I approach…let us say, on your behalf, he may talk to me.
TEHELKA: Okay.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: He may talk to MGO. What do I tell him, "Sir, take this?"
TEHELKA: Hmm.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Okay? On what basis? So, what I mean is let little…more through your contact, you have to get the information, what exactly is the present position of file.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Okay. That means the request of proposal which have come, they must be considering that.
LT. COL. SAYAL: That's right, sir.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: So if some eliminations they have done, something they must have analysed, that this is available, and this is not. If that analysis is done, then what is their analysis regarding you?

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: You understand?
TEHELKA: I got it, it got it. I can follow that.

TEHELKA: We submitted Ranjit Issar.
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Hmm?
TEHELKA: IAS. Ranjit Issar, Joint Secretary, Ordnance. Procurement.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Now, if you are wanting to meet MGO, I can arrange a meeting. That's all. And then you can talk whatever you like. That can be done. Okay? So that's all for….
LT. COL. SAYAL: You can arrange wherever you like.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: His office.
LT. COL. SAYAL: Whichever is the place. It will be difficult in the office.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Everythying is possible.
LT. COL. SAYAL: No, otherwise we have to take care. Take care, I mean…

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: He'll inform himself.
LT. COL. SAYAL: He'll inform himself?

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Who else do you want to meet? PPO?
LT. COL. SAYAL: PPO and MGO.
TEHELKA: And Maj. Gen. P.S.K. Choudary, Additional Director General, Weapons and Equipments.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: He has no role to play in this.
TEHELKA: No role?
LT. COL. SAYAL: No.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: And…and I'm telling you. Like you…. Today I'm telling you, don't be disappointed later on. Like you, hundred people are visiting them with the same proposals. Hundred.
TEHELKA: Okay.

TEHELKA: Sir, if you are close to Pradhani…that Defence Production Minister…of Defence Production Prahdani, R.P. Pradhani. That Shiv Sena…

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: He's not Pradhani. He is Hiren Pathak.
LT. COL. SAYAL: Pathak.

TEHELKA: Only one minister for state. Sir, if you are close to him. We can give him some election fund also.
MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: I will introduce him.
TEHELKA: Introduce him? Okay.

LT. COL. SAYAL: I told you something to take care.
LT. COL. SAYAL: How much is this?
TEHELKA: Twenty.

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: That is okay.
TEHELKA: No, please….

MAJ. GEN. MURGAI: Let me see how the things go.
LT. COL. SAYAL: It is nothing, sir. This has to be given. Give…
TEHELKA: 9.30, sir.
LT. COL. SAYAL: 9.30.

NARENDRA SINGH: So...but initially what I think is that your...first of all, your product should be tried out by infantry or artillery and they should say, you know, they have seen the product and it is very good.
TEHELKA: Okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: That is regarding user trials.
TEHELKA: So what I have to do first? Already this channel is okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: I...I...you know, I can give you some references.
TEHELKA: Okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: Once you meet them officially, you explain them your problem.
TEHELKA: Sir, that Ranjit Issar in the Ordnance is very crucial factor.

NARENDRA SINGH: No, no...see, I am telling you that these people, what you are talking is Bhutani, Bunker or Ranjit Issar or...I will give a parallel line in the finance division. They will come into picture only when there is a procurement proposal. Before that they have nothing to do.
TEHELKA: Okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: They are concerned only with the procurement of things. Before that necessity and acceptability of the product has to be there. They should say, you know, that what you are offering in technology-wise or performance-wise this is a improvement over what we have already seen.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: So some...and then how to get you entered into the competition.

NARENDRA SINGH: I give you one example, then you will know the terms. There is one more very established company - Sagem.
TEHELKA: Which one?

NARENDRA SINGH: Sagem! Sagem!
TEHELKA: Sagem. Which...foreign company?

NARENDRA SINGH: Foreign company. French company.
TEHELKA: Haan.

NARENDRA SINGH: For the last five years they are trying that their product should be seen by the army. They have not been successful.
TEHELKA: Not yet?

NARENDRA SINGH: Not yet.
TEHELKA: What is the problem?

NARENDRA SINGH: And they have a office in Delhi.
TEHELKA: Uh-huh.

NARENDRA SINGH: One General-level officer has been posted here.
TEHELKA: General?

NARENDRA SINGH: One General-level officer has been posted here.
TEHELKA: Retired?
NARENDRA SINGH: Retired.

TEHELKA: In the Indian Army?
NARENDRA SINGH: French army.

TEHELKA: Indian Army?
NARENDRA SINGH: French army.

TEHELKA: French army.
NARENDRA SINGH: Hmm. He is been posted here. They have a office in Golf Links. All that, I mean, Colonel Sehgal will, of course, not be aware of these things because his department is different.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

NARENDRA SINGH: So it is not very easy...to get an entry is not very easy. You see...your principals are which company?
TEHELKA: West End.

NARENDRA SINGH: West End.

NARENDRA SINGH: I know, I know...no...actually I had...actually when you compared yourself with Thomson and all that, I started thinking that way. It is not that way. It is off-the-shelf. It is different entirely.
TEHELKA: It is different.

NARENDRA SINGH: So they will...I know now...now I know what will they do is this emergency requirement.
TEHELKA: It's emergency requirement.

NARENDRA SINGH: So emergency requirements, so far it is not there in our list.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: So, there are...I will tell you there are number of persons to be contacted. Contacting one person will not help in MoD also. There are number of persons. One person will be holding the project.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

NARENDRA SINGH: One person who will be clearing the demand.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: Another person who will be sitting in the PNC.
TEHELKA: Right.

NARENDRA SINGH: Right? See...so there will be four-five at working levels.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: So I am more concerned with people who are at the working level.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: So, then it is your job, if there are any problems I will tell you, you will have to handle this person or that person.
TEHELKA: Okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: So before that...keep, kindly keep quiet on that and you should not meet anybody till then. And then I will tell you if it, I mean, comes to that stage then how to go ahead. You have to tackle that man. How you tackle that has to be your…

[Narendra Singh smiles and Tehelka gives him a wad of currency notes, which Singh takes and puts under the table between them.]

TEHELKA: Sir, this is 10,000 bucks. So what is my request is that, please arrange these kind of meetings. We can meet these people in Park Hotel anywhere.
NARENDRA SINGH: Let me tell you...see, you let the demand come.

TEHELKA: This is 10,000...this is 10,000 bucks. Small, this is just a…

TEHELKA: They are the major players.
NARENDRA SINGH: These are the major players. So…

TEHELKA: Sir, you have any idea, what they are giving percentage to...

[NARENDRA SINGH shakes his head]

TEHELKA: Hmm? Defence people told me, they are giving around...more than 21 percentage.
NARENDRA SINGH: Oh, no, no, no.

TEHELKA: Total? I don't think so 21 per cent no one will give. If 21 per cent, then what is the profit?
NARENDRA SINGH: No. And you, now as per the latest procedure, if you are not the lowest you are out.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: Even if we buy it from you, one thing is sure, the other two companies will be in the fray.
TEHELKA: Naturally.

NARENDRA SINGH: So you will think of giving the best price in the first quote. So, even if you are by one dollar, you are higher than them. You have no chance. Whatever you have done it goes in the drain. That is another thing. So, nowadays, that 21 per cent is out of question. It could have been earlier.

NARENDRA SINGH: But now for the last one-and-a-half years, the latest instructions have come that contract is to be based on the L-1, that is lowest offer received. All higher offers are to be summarily rejected. No talking to them.
TEHELKA: Okay.

NARENDRA SINGH: So, how…how can you keep that 21…?
TEHELKA: 21 per cent is a big one!

NARENDRA SINGH: It's only two-three per cent and you see 100 crores. What you see two-three per cent, means it is two-three crore rupees, you know.
TEHELKA: Yeah. What that procurement officer, that Ordnance people saying, they need direct 4 percentage.

NARENDRA SINGH: See, let me tell you right now, I mean because you have come to me, I am very simple, and you will find out later on also.
TEHELKA: Yeah, naturally.

NARENDRA SINGH: I will not try to misguide you because our association will be very long also. See, right now, Ordnance have nothing to do with…
TEHELKA: Yes.

NARENDRA SINGH: Absolutely nothing.
TEHELKA: Yes.

NARENDRA SINGH: They will not come into picture, neither PPO will come.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

NARENDRA SINGH: It is only W.E. only and Infantry and Mechanisation and Artillery.

PANT: I will obviously…
SASHI: File evaluation, but Choudary is not considering it.

PANT: When you sent the letter to him?
SASHI: When, just…three weeks before.

TEHELKA: One month. One month.
PANT: You got a copy of this?

TEHELKA: Copy of this…
SASHI: No. That covering letter…

TEHELKA: No sir, that I will give you tomorrow.
PANT: Okay, fine. Then I will speak to him.

TEHELKA: Yeah.
SASHI: That…whatever their demand is, let us know.

PANT: Don't worry about these things. Once the job is done, everything takes care of itself. Why do you worry about these things?

SASHI: Choudary sahab…
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: Forget about all these, first let the work happen, then we'll do all that. You know Hindi well? You can speak that?
TEHELKA: Yeah, yeah. Sir, the evaluation work has to be done. Sir, that is most important.

PANT: Hmm.
SASHI: Sir just said, na, the evaluation work, I shall speak to sir and get it done. After that only you meet…

PANT: I will speak to him immediately.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay. General Choudary?
PANT: Yes.

SASHI: And after that sir, there is another financial party is also there.
PANT: Hmm.

PANT: Go through. This is a channel basically....
TEHELKA: Yeah.

PANT: You have to go through the DG Infantry. DG Infantry will recommend it to DGOS or MGO…
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: Basically they recommend it to MGO or the DGOS. DGOS then he will give it to General Choudary. This is basically the route.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

PANT: DG Infantry General Shankar Prasad, he has to recommend it first of all.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: So, you have to go the General; I will get you an appointment with General Shankar Prasad.
TEHELKA: Okay, Shankar Prasad?
PANT: Yeah.

TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: Yeah. So, better you first…
SASHI: First DG Infantry will recommend the version…

PANT: …to DGOS. This is the channel basically.
TEHELKA: Okay, sir.

PANT: Then I will speak to…I have already spoken to General Choudary…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

PANT: But he said…but the recommending authority is we people.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: First you meet him, then they will recommend it, then it will go to DGOS. DGOS then you meet Colonel Pandey there. One of my friend is there.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: He is the staff officer of Colonel Soni.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: So, you go to him, and then he will tell…in the meantime, I will speak to General Choudary.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

PANT: This is the channel.

PANT: He is a smart chap. General Choudary is a smart chap.
TEHELKA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

PANT: Recently he had a tie-up with one of my friend, for a house in Vasant Vihar, costing about 1.86 crore.
TEHELKA: Okay, General Choudary?

PANT: Yes. That is why I know his ins and out. I have told him, "Brother, how do you get so much of money?" He says, "No, no…"

[All laugh]

PANT: I said, "Saala, I will have you locked up."

PANT: Give him some gift, that is it. That would be much, much better because both of them know me personally. They may not take anything in my presence, but as a gift wrap you give him then.
SASHI: Let's pick up a nice gift.

TEHELKA: Okay, what gift do we give?
PANT: Give anything.

TEHELKA: You tell us…what gift?
PANT: Gold chain or something like that.

TEHELKA: Okay, okay, sir. Costing is around?
PANT: Must be around 9-10,000.

TEHELKA: That's all?
PANT: Yes, right now only this much. Not all at once. Again I'll tell you and then you give more.
SASHI: Then we'll give later. Okay?

SASHI: Sir, New Year is also coming in December. Then we can more…we can cultivate more things.
PANT: General Choudary's wife basically, and the daughter, they have been doing all this. You have to move through them.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: We will take you to his residence. I know about all their transactions and what all they do. That's why I say, "Saala, where did you get so much from?"

PANT: No problem.
TEHELKA: Nothing, I want give a…present a small presentation.
SASHI: I didn't go to the shop also.

[Tehelka hands over two bundles of hundred-rupees note amounting to Rs. 20,000.]

TEHELKA: Twenty thousand.

[Pant gets up from the seat.]

PANT: No, that's what I said. We will make a presentation for that, then we will go for this.
SASHI: I forgot the shop, I recognized the little girl's voice; I thought I'd have to go again for her to Mehrasons.

PANT: No, no, no. Not that. I will prepare the brief…on the basis you discuss with them.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: For General Choudary we will meet at Vasant Vihar.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: Vasant Vihar.The flat he has bought little recently. We will meet there. But he doesn't meet there at his house.
TEHELKA: Yes, yes.

PANT: So, the place where he will meet, you know. So, you have to arrange like this only, because this is such a thing.
TEHELKA: Sir, if they need any kind of funds also, we can arrange it also.

PANT: That we…let us get something out of it, let us get some orders only, after that only we will…
SASHI: Evaluation or some movement.

PANT: We will discuss everything with them, yaar. They are very open on all this.
TEHELKA: Okay.

PANT: That's why I said there are certain places where they meet. I know the places where they meet. His daughter and his wife, they basically look after these things. You know, there is a channel, everybody…everybody is acting on those.
SASHI: And, we can take a gift. This gold coins? Small…

PANT: Gold coin; last time I have sent one MMTC coin.
SASHI: Okay. MMTC coin, like that we…Mehrasons, I think…

TEHELKA: That…that I will arrange.

PANT: I have introduced him to him. I said, This is the man. I know his father. I know his…both, son and father. Both. And, of course, he is very younger to us, but his father has cultivated him like this. And he says, he's not shown much. But his father knows everybody. In fact, PM and he used to stay in their house in GK in '77…'75, '76, '77. I have seen him there. Vajpayee used to live there in his house [R.K. GUPTA's house]. And he's given one of his Jhandewalan buildings to RSS. That building was owned by R.K.Gupta. He has donated to his RSS people.
TEHELKA: This man is doing…Mr. Gupta is doing some kind of liaisoning also? For big people?

DEEPAK CHHABRA: Yeah, for big people.
TEHELKA: Sir, we are not a small people.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Whatever you want in the Ministry of Defence…I am using the word "Ministry of Defence"
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I am not using…not using the word "user".
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I may not be able to help you at the user level…because there may be clash of interest…
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Plus also, I don't use the user. I use other people to handle the user.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: That is why there is a…there could be a clash of interest.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: The entire ruckus is because of that. We will take over the MoD. We don't get into the user. If user, he can handle himself…
PANT: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: …and the bureaucracy looks at you…. You see, unless the user clears you…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: …as a vendor…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: You see, first step…I don't know what the stage of your project is. You will have to submit your project…you will have to go through….

[Pant's mobile phone rings and he talks to caller while Gupta and Tehelka continue their conversation]

DEEPAK GUPTA: Tatkal.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: MGO normally has three suppliers.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: You have to be one of them.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: If you become one of the three…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Then it is my job to pick you up.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: You see, what happens is, that whole report is sent to the MoD.
TEHELKA: Pardon?

DEEPAK GUPTA: User sends the report to the Ministry of Defence.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Say, I have short-listed three suppliers.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And let's say, you are one of the three suppliers.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Now once you are one of the three suppliers, then they will have the tendering process.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: After which they have their PNC. That's where we can help you.
TEHELKA: Hmm, hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Where we can tell you what to fill; what are the other rates that are likely to come.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Because unless you are the lowest, or you are a supply holder, nobody will help you.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Now, political help comes only in areas where either you are L-1 or you are single vendor.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Now, if you look at the entire Russian business, it is all single vendor.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Okay? So…there is no question. See, if we have to buy T-90, then we only have to buy T-90.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: There's nothing else. When we have to buy Sukhoi-30. It is only Sukhoi-30. When we have to buy Goldskoff, it is only Goldskoff. So there's no competition.
TEHELKA: Yeah, exactly. That is true.

DEEPAK GUPTA: But when you bid small products…
TEHELKA: Haan?
DEEPAK GUPTA: And it's not small, let me tell you. A Thermal Imaging and Night-Vision binoculars is used.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: In fact, there is a PNC on in the first week of December to upgrade the T-72…where 250 tanks are going in for upgradation.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: That's an order of about 400 crores. Okay? Thereafter, they are going to give another 750 units. Like this they will carry on.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: So…yours is hand-held, which would be for the infantry, I guess?
PANT: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Tell me one thing.
PANT: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: If secretary's told…
PANT: Hmm?

DEEPAK GUPTA: If Defence Secretary's told, can Defence Secretary ask W.E. to go in for trial?
PANT: Yeah, certainly.

DEEPAK GUPTA: That I will do. That I will do.
TEHELKA: No, that…that I will tell you that difficulties of that also. Sir, I asked this matter also.

PANT: General Choudary is a man basically they are looking for.
TEHELKA: I…I asked this matter also.

DEEPAK GUPTA: General P.S.K. Choudary is our…
PANT: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA:Only he takes too much money. If he is ready to give the money, then we can discuss it with General Choudary. If he's willing to spend the money, I'll try…

TEHELKA: Yeah, sir, I'm willing to spend, no problem…
DEEPAK GUPTA: I can talk to even General Choudary, let's talk.

PANT: All right. How much should we fix the deal at?
DEEPAK GUPTA: Right.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Let me tell you briefly my job profile. My job profile is Power, Defence, Telecommunication and highways.
TEHELKA: Aviation?

DEEPAK GUPTA: Highways. Highways.
TEHELKA: Highways.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And these four areas…whatever money that has to go to the government, goes through me.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Which gives me the access to get any instructions done.
TEHELKA: Okay, okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA (continuing): Let me explain to you my operation or you will not understand.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I operate from the PMO.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Okay? Brajesh Mishra gives in suggestions…
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: "Do this, do this." "This needs to be done", "This file needs to stop…."
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: "…this file needs to begin."
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: So we are in a area of big fish. We catch big fish. We don't catch small fish.
TEHELKA: Hmm, hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: We catch the big fish. If you want to catch the big fish, it is 35 per cent business.
TEHELKA: That is true.

DEEPAK GUPTA: It is 35 per cent business.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: You understand? We don't catch the small fish. But while the net is put for the big fish, there are people who hold the net. There is Defence Secretary, there are some joint secretaries…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: So I come to know.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: They know this man operates from the political area. So be good friends with him.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And I always tell them, "You need not be free friends…"
TEHELKA: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: "You know what to do with your money."
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: So, we have good relations. Now, at the user level, when it comes to army, air force…I have people who are operating in small areas. Small-time agents. They can be worked upon for clearances. "Clear our money…" "Clear our order…" Because main payment goes to bureaucracy and politicians. You see, in order, if you want political interference politicians take four-five per cent, bureaucracy takes two per cent, user takes only one per cent. Eight per cent. Maybe one or two per cent expenses.

TEHELKA: Again tell me, politician will take?
DEEPAK GUPTA: Four-five per cent.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Bureaucracy will take two per cent.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: One per cent user will take, you know, out of….
TEHELKA: Yeah, yeah. Total will be at 10?

DEEPAK GUPTA: Eight. Eight.
TEHELKA: That's all.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Basically there are other expenses, you know. You have taken project two years, three years to do…. Expenses…it's another two per cent.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Ten per cent is your expense. Commission in this business is 15 per cent.
TEHELKA: Total commission?

DEEPAK GUPTA: Then you make five per cent. I'm talking from an agent's point of view.

DEEPAK GUPTA: I know two people who know Gen Choudary.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: One is Deepak Chhabra…
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: And the other man is a chap called Sharma. He works for my company.
TEHELKA: Haan.

DEEPAK GUPTA: But I prefer Chhabra to Sharma.
TEHELKA: Okay.

DEEPAK GUPTA: Because Chhabra will deliver goods. Sharma has a habit that first give the money.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

DEEPAK GUPTA: First give the money, then we will see.
TEHELKA: Hmm.

RAKESH NIGAM: No, no. The commission you spelt out, 17 per cent, that will come at a later stage. We will not ask you for a letter or anything until we are sure about whether we can perform or not. But to make a breakthrough within that 17 per cent there is going to be…there could be something known as teething problems. Teething expenses…which you have to meet. How much, that's what I am asking you.

TEHELKA: You see, you are talking about the token amount?

RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.
TEHELKA: Token amount is if you can arrange a meeting with this man, Defence Secretary. It's just a half kind of promise from his level. It won't be work out in 2000, it maybe in 2001. Now on-the-spot I can give two lakh rupees.

RAKESH NIGAM: Mr. Mathew, I will give you 25 lakhs of rupees. You arrange for my meeting with one of my contacts…with Defence Secretary. People here talk in crores, you are talking two lakhs and five lakhs…
TEHELKA: Sir, this is when nothing has happened.

RAKESH NIGAM: Obviously…no, no, Mr. Mathew, for organising a meeting is a very big breakthrough. It's not, just not…it's all going to be official.
TEHELKA: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: Nothing off-the-record. Which will happen. And getting an access there is itself an opening. Yeah, we are going to be looked after. If…let's talk in terms where we can really make a breakthrough with the business. Two lakhs, five lakhs, 10 lakhs people just throw…for entertaining. Recently Deepak and I just incurred an expenditure of about a lakh rupees, a week back.

TEHELKA: Did this man introduce lot of finance last year. Financial advisors and some defence officers…those who are related W.E. I am not blaming him. If minister is unable to reach him, then how can…?
RAKESH NIGAM: Very strange. Harin Pathak is a very bold person. One or two jobs he did for me, and we exchanged bags. And things moved very smoothly.
TEHELKA: Which one? In the foreign deal?
RAKESH NIGAM: Yeah.

RAKESH NIGAM: That is the very reason that you have been in this business and have not been able to make a proper breakthrough. Your own, your person whom you are naming their own ministers…I got one job…just for a breakthrough. For six years this project, they were not getting any breakthrough. I was getting competition from companies like…people like Chaudhary and Nanda. I gave one CR and things started moving.
TEHELKA: CR means?
RAKESH NIGAM: One…

TEHELKA: One crore?
RAKESH NIGAM: For MTR.

TEHELKA: MTR is?
RAKESH NIGAM: Germany.

TEHELKA: Okay, that is a HAL thing.
RAKESH NIGAM: HAL thing.

TEHELKA: What was that?
RAKESH NIGAM: Engines. For six years they were getting fucked in Delhi and the Indian agent was screwing them.

TEHELKA: So Mr. Harin Pathak…